I'm interested in how you square your belief that destiny, rather than fate, controls outcomes, with the Fatima warnings that we must not anger God, which suggest punishment is a possibility.
Do you see the messages/warnings as speaking somewhat metaphorically in a way that believers of that faith could relate to? Or as specific and concrete?
I'm not sure if that makes sense at all but am hoping so!
Thank you for your thoughtful question! I do believe that the Fatima messages and the idea of destiny can coexist without contradiction. In my understanding, the Fatima warnings are not about a fixed, unavoidable fate but rather a call to action — a divine intervention aimed at steering humanity away from destructive paths. In this sense, the warnings aren’t about fatalism but about the potential consequences of our choices, aligning more with the concept of destiny, where human free will and divine cooperation shape the future.
When Mary warned about not angering God, I see it less as a metaphor for punishment and more as a reflection of spiritual cause and effect. Just as in a natural law, certain actions produce certain consequences, the Fatima warnings (and for that matter those at Medjugorje) remind us that spiritual laws work similarly. If humanity turns away from divine guidance, it opens the door to negative outcomes, which we could interpret as 'punishment,' but not in a fatalistic sense — it's the result of choices that can still be changed.
So, I’d interpret the warnings as both specific and concrete in the sense that they refer to real potential outcomes, but also as a guide, encouraging people to change the course of their lives and destiny. In this magical universe, nothing is entirely fixed. The warnings serve to mobilize our free will to align with divine intention, ultimately shaping a more positive destiny.
How long the window of opportunity to avoid divine retribution remains open is anyone's guess. Mary said in Medjugorje that some outcomes of humanity's loss of its moral compass cannot be avoided, but can be ameliorated through repentance and returning to the moral path.
At Fatima, Mary said on July 13, 1917, “This war [World War I] will end but if men do not refrain from offending God, another and more terrible war will begin.” She predicted both the end of World War I and the beginning of World War II! Today, offenses against the Divine Order — such as moral relativism and the rejection, even the inversion, of sacred values — are increasing exponentially.
Thanks for your reply! This is indeed a magical universe, full of so much more than scientific or religious doctrines are willing to accept as possible.
I've been thinking a lot around the concept of divine intervention vs spiritual cause and effect as that relates to free will. Deep waters. I think I've come to a similar "conclusion," though my spiritual "conclusions" are never final. (That's one reason I don't belong to a particular religion. I feel the need to be open to interpretations and ideas and to update my understanding as I grow into it. Dogma is terribly inflexible. No offence meant to anyone who sees it otherwise.)
It seems to me that God wouldn't have given us free will if he intended to intervene and dish out consequences when we made bad choices - be that on an individual or collective level. He doesn't have to because He created a world in which cause and effect, natural law as you note, provides the consequences. And he decided that Satan/evil would rule this planet, which is indeed more and more in evidence. We definitely seem more easily convinced than ever though to take the easier path now, which is what moral relativism allows.
That series of thoughts always brings me to the Bible and the many times God intervened in the lives of the Isrealites and others. I'm nothing close to a Biblical scholar. But I wonder if the Bible stories, like you have suggested with the Fatima and Medjugorje warnings, are perhaps also a reflection on spiritual cause and effect. Stories meant not to be taken literally but as a means of helping people of all ages, circumstances and backgrounds understand that no good comes of defying natural law/God's commandments (which are, supreme creator aside, an excellent set of rules for how to build a civil society and generally get along with others). Given how the Bible has been interpreted and re-interpreted and annotated etc, it seems unlikely what we read now is its original form. That matters less if it isn't to be interpreted literally. Humans have always used stories to explain and understand deeper truths. Why would spiritual truths be any different?
What are your thoughts?
You mention "the window of opportunity to avoid divine retribution" and that some outcomes cannot be avoided. That makes a sense when you look at the consequences of "pandemic" measures, for example, some of which may be permanent from a DNA perspective. WWIII, should it occur, is likely to have irreparable negative impacts on the planet and its inhabitants also.
How do you view the idea of divine cooperation? What does that look like?
Do you think humanity ever had a moral compass collectively? Certainly it would appear that more individuals did, though rarely those who've led us. But as a whole, was there ever a time when we were particularly good at loving God and our neighbours as ourselves?
Thank you again for your engagement and for sharing your reflections. You’ve raised some thought-provoking points that get to the heart of the tension between free will, divine intervention, and spiritual cause and effect. Here are a few thoughts in response:
1. Divine Intervention and Free Will: You noted that God wouldn’t intervene and dish out consequences if He gave us free will. I believe divine intervention occurs not to override free will but, in some cases, to prevent humanity from destroying itself completely. Intervention, then, isn't about punishment for "bad choices" but rather about redirecting us when we are on a path of self-destruction, especially when the consequences affect all of humanity, such as nuclear Armageddon that would end life on Earth. It’s a kind of divine mercy, ensuring that we don’t bring about irreparable harm to ourselves.
2. Fatima and Medjugorje: These apparitions serve as Divine interventions by proxy, as you said, through the Virgin Mary, the quintessence of the Divine Feminine/Great Mother archetype. She doesn’t intervene to dictate our actions but rather offers warnings and guidance — calling us back to the narrow path. Sadly, much of what she has warned us about has been ignored.
3. Stories and Spiritual Truth: I absolutely agree that our stories, myths, and religious texts serve as vessels for deeper truths. In the Bible and other ancient texts, spiritual cause and effect is often depicted as divine judgment or intervention. But, as you suggest, these stories also convey moral lessons that transcend literal interpretation. The book to read is "Who Wrote the Bible," by Richard Friedman. Another author worth exploring is John Dominic Crossan.
4. Divine Cooperation: You asked, “What does divine cooperation look like?” In my view, it begins with cultivating a relationship with the Divine through prayer, meditation, or simply quiet reflection. When we quiet our minds, we can better hear our inner voice — our connection to Divine Mind a.k.a. God.
Thank you again for this meaningful discussion. I appreciate your reflections and the opportunity to share my thoughts with you. May we both continue to seek wisdom and deeper understanding. I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey!
Thanks for the book recommendation. Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God and A History of God are also good.
I won't take up more of your time but wanted to say I hadn't thought of the apparitions as divine intervention. I'd perceived intervention as God taking an active role in deciding outcomes so I appreciate that insight as it's more compatible with free will to suggest but not decide. Also, I was thinking of divine cooperation more in the collective sense but can see how it is the personal relationship.
A very interesting essay, thanks!
I'm interested in how you square your belief that destiny, rather than fate, controls outcomes, with the Fatima warnings that we must not anger God, which suggest punishment is a possibility.
Do you see the messages/warnings as speaking somewhat metaphorically in a way that believers of that faith could relate to? Or as specific and concrete?
I'm not sure if that makes sense at all but am hoping so!
Thank you for your thoughtful question! I do believe that the Fatima messages and the idea of destiny can coexist without contradiction. In my understanding, the Fatima warnings are not about a fixed, unavoidable fate but rather a call to action — a divine intervention aimed at steering humanity away from destructive paths. In this sense, the warnings aren’t about fatalism but about the potential consequences of our choices, aligning more with the concept of destiny, where human free will and divine cooperation shape the future.
When Mary warned about not angering God, I see it less as a metaphor for punishment and more as a reflection of spiritual cause and effect. Just as in a natural law, certain actions produce certain consequences, the Fatima warnings (and for that matter those at Medjugorje) remind us that spiritual laws work similarly. If humanity turns away from divine guidance, it opens the door to negative outcomes, which we could interpret as 'punishment,' but not in a fatalistic sense — it's the result of choices that can still be changed.
So, I’d interpret the warnings as both specific and concrete in the sense that they refer to real potential outcomes, but also as a guide, encouraging people to change the course of their lives and destiny. In this magical universe, nothing is entirely fixed. The warnings serve to mobilize our free will to align with divine intention, ultimately shaping a more positive destiny.
How long the window of opportunity to avoid divine retribution remains open is anyone's guess. Mary said in Medjugorje that some outcomes of humanity's loss of its moral compass cannot be avoided, but can be ameliorated through repentance and returning to the moral path.
At Fatima, Mary said on July 13, 1917, “This war [World War I] will end but if men do not refrain from offending God, another and more terrible war will begin.” She predicted both the end of World War I and the beginning of World War II! Today, offenses against the Divine Order — such as moral relativism and the rejection, even the inversion, of sacred values — are increasing exponentially.
Thanks for your reply! This is indeed a magical universe, full of so much more than scientific or religious doctrines are willing to accept as possible.
I've been thinking a lot around the concept of divine intervention vs spiritual cause and effect as that relates to free will. Deep waters. I think I've come to a similar "conclusion," though my spiritual "conclusions" are never final. (That's one reason I don't belong to a particular religion. I feel the need to be open to interpretations and ideas and to update my understanding as I grow into it. Dogma is terribly inflexible. No offence meant to anyone who sees it otherwise.)
It seems to me that God wouldn't have given us free will if he intended to intervene and dish out consequences when we made bad choices - be that on an individual or collective level. He doesn't have to because He created a world in which cause and effect, natural law as you note, provides the consequences. And he decided that Satan/evil would rule this planet, which is indeed more and more in evidence. We definitely seem more easily convinced than ever though to take the easier path now, which is what moral relativism allows.
That series of thoughts always brings me to the Bible and the many times God intervened in the lives of the Isrealites and others. I'm nothing close to a Biblical scholar. But I wonder if the Bible stories, like you have suggested with the Fatima and Medjugorje warnings, are perhaps also a reflection on spiritual cause and effect. Stories meant not to be taken literally but as a means of helping people of all ages, circumstances and backgrounds understand that no good comes of defying natural law/God's commandments (which are, supreme creator aside, an excellent set of rules for how to build a civil society and generally get along with others). Given how the Bible has been interpreted and re-interpreted and annotated etc, it seems unlikely what we read now is its original form. That matters less if it isn't to be interpreted literally. Humans have always used stories to explain and understand deeper truths. Why would spiritual truths be any different?
What are your thoughts?
You mention "the window of opportunity to avoid divine retribution" and that some outcomes cannot be avoided. That makes a sense when you look at the consequences of "pandemic" measures, for example, some of which may be permanent from a DNA perspective. WWIII, should it occur, is likely to have irreparable negative impacts on the planet and its inhabitants also.
How do you view the idea of divine cooperation? What does that look like?
Do you think humanity ever had a moral compass collectively? Certainly it would appear that more individuals did, though rarely those who've led us. But as a whole, was there ever a time when we were particularly good at loving God and our neighbours as ourselves?
Thank you again for your engagement and for sharing your reflections. You’ve raised some thought-provoking points that get to the heart of the tension between free will, divine intervention, and spiritual cause and effect. Here are a few thoughts in response:
1. Divine Intervention and Free Will: You noted that God wouldn’t intervene and dish out consequences if He gave us free will. I believe divine intervention occurs not to override free will but, in some cases, to prevent humanity from destroying itself completely. Intervention, then, isn't about punishment for "bad choices" but rather about redirecting us when we are on a path of self-destruction, especially when the consequences affect all of humanity, such as nuclear Armageddon that would end life on Earth. It’s a kind of divine mercy, ensuring that we don’t bring about irreparable harm to ourselves.
2. Fatima and Medjugorje: These apparitions serve as Divine interventions by proxy, as you said, through the Virgin Mary, the quintessence of the Divine Feminine/Great Mother archetype. She doesn’t intervene to dictate our actions but rather offers warnings and guidance — calling us back to the narrow path. Sadly, much of what she has warned us about has been ignored.
https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalspirituality/p/sorath-sun-demon-of-revelation-13?r=g6u5j&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
3. Stories and Spiritual Truth: I absolutely agree that our stories, myths, and religious texts serve as vessels for deeper truths. In the Bible and other ancient texts, spiritual cause and effect is often depicted as divine judgment or intervention. But, as you suggest, these stories also convey moral lessons that transcend literal interpretation. The book to read is "Who Wrote the Bible," by Richard Friedman. Another author worth exploring is John Dominic Crossan.
4. Divine Cooperation: You asked, “What does divine cooperation look like?” In my view, it begins with cultivating a relationship with the Divine through prayer, meditation, or simply quiet reflection. When we quiet our minds, we can better hear our inner voice — our connection to Divine Mind a.k.a. God.
Thank you again for this meaningful discussion. I appreciate your reflections and the opportunity to share my thoughts with you. May we both continue to seek wisdom and deeper understanding. I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey!
https://open.substack.com/pub/rationalspirituality/p/trinitarian-theory-of-consciousness?r=g6u5j&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Thanks for the book recommendation. Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God and A History of God are also good.
I won't take up more of your time but wanted to say I hadn't thought of the apparitions as divine intervention. I'd perceived intervention as God taking an active role in deciding outcomes so I appreciate that insight as it's more compatible with free will to suggest but not decide. Also, I was thinking of divine cooperation more in the collective sense but can see how it is the personal relationship.
I also appreciate the discussion!